Reminders of the anti-gay message at Mormon’s General Conference

Understand that behind everything you just said, is the false belief that you “know” more than God. From the beginning of time, God has spoken to his children through Prophets. The Bible warns mankind to not trust in the arm of the flesh, or in the understanding of men… and that’s exactly what you’re doing.

To me, that is sad.

Be thou believing. Or in other words, trust that God knows more than you.

God be with you my friend.

I remember growing up as an altar boy in the catholic church. In fact, right to this day, I still serve the community and follow God’s Will by volunteering as an Eucharistic Minister bringing Holy Communion to the sick and homebound. Even thou I am Catholic, I do not believe in everything the catholic church preaches, starting with the Pope. That old Queen needs to settle down. I even told my parish pastor and asst pastor that I live the alternative lifestyle and that my service to God by bringing Communion to the sick has nothing to do with it. They know about me being gay, but they never say a word. They allow me to continue what i do as a lay person. I think its because they live in the same side of fence that I do, if you know what I mean. Its a shame. Here its 2010 and we are still fighting for gay rights. I love it when people decide that Gays and Lesbians can “choose” what they are, in being gay or straight. I was born Gay, I live gay, and I will die gay. One thing I truly believe is that God made each and every one of us in his own image and “God, Does Not Make Mistakes”. Why would a person “choose” to be gay only to be made fun of or tormented each and every day? I see why there are so many suicides in the world in regards to being gay. I was one of those youths, who during college, I wanted to commit suicide. It was my family and friends who brought me up to respect myself and that things will get better. God made us this way for a reason and it just blows my mind how many close-minded people actually live in this world. They are the first to judge others, but if they dig deep enough in their very own closets, they will find that they should judge themselves first. Look at the closet Catholic Priests for example. It’s a shame. But if people would open up their minds about LGBT issues, this world would be a much better place. I would love to find my soulmate and actually Marry him. It’s sad that str8 people can marry, have benefits, and enjoy their lives together. But I can’t enjoy those same benefits and that is what bothers me. Who is the anti-gay people to judge whom anyone can love? Love between 2 very special people is powerful whether its str8 or gay. That love is bonded by God himself. He’s the one who brings love to the world. We are all God’s children and for one to condone and judge that, should be hung, for they are not christians. I will continue to fight for gay rights for I want to enjoy the same benefits as anyone else. I want to be married, have kids, a family, a husband to wake up to each morning and go to sleep with each night. Someone to grow old with and use our rocking chairs in our ‘Golden Years’. Is that so very hard to believe? Thanks for taking the time to read my comment. I feel better that I got something off my chest. :-) God Bless us all, especially the LGBT community as we fight for our rights……….

Russ,

I trust that God knows far more than me. I know that I see through a mirror dimly lit. I know that I will spend my entire life searching, groping, begging God for more understanding. I know that I only stand by the Grace that he gives. And I believe and am convinced that God weeps at churches singling out gay people for attack and persecution. Remember, Russ, Christ calls us to remove the plank from our own eyes first — but the church chooses to prey on a group that is powerless within the church — for special persecution. There is no national movement to outlaw remarriage — yet God hates divorce and decrees it to be adultery to remarry. Where is your indignation and propositions to outlaw remarriage?? Where is it?? It is no where to be found because that would implicate too many people. In churches. Pete is trying to save lives — precious lives in the sight of God — and your callousness does not reflect the Grace of God. I beg you to understand that you stand by the same grace that will allow the homosexual to stand before God. To think anything else is to commit the sin of the pharisee. And, if you have studied your bible — be it mormon or otherwise — you will know that Jesus took a dim view of those who felt like they knew God’s mind so well that they could judge without mercy. So I say to you, Russ, offer grace to those who are killing themselves because they are made to feel like they are unloved by God as freely as you need Grace yourself. And thank God that people like Pete are honest enough and compassionate enough to be a voice for the voiceless.

Bravo David!!!! I agree with you 100% man….

to my little brother:

i have about a million thoughts, let’s talk more soon, but to answer just a few of your questions…

how do i see you? as my brother, my family, a part of me the same way i’m a part of you, as the little kid with the missing front tooth, as the bigger kid who got with blood all over their soccer uniform at that tournament in anchorage, as the kid i got stuck in the snow with while trying to catch the bus to school. i see you as a friend.

i’m sad to think that you may see me as hateful. i’m sad that you see the church that way. clearly that has not been my experience, or my view. but i get that we come from different places (though let’s remember that I’m 29 and single). i’m sorry if you feel attacked, i don’t believe that is ever what church leaders intend. and i hope you know that’s not what i ever intend.

i have a million more thoughts, but we’ll talk soon. love you so much. always. no matter what. and that’s the truth. and don’t act like you don’t know that. puh-lease.

i can only hope that maybe some of your friends, who maybe don’t know many mormons, can see that we’re hopefully not exactly the way you portray us to be.

David,

Your comment reflects a common misunderstanding regarding the grace of God, and his mercy. You see, Gods’ love does not cancel out his law. Grace doesn’t make sin right. Sin is sin. And regardless of how much some people don’t like Gods laws, they are unchanging.

Does God love gay people as much as straight people? Absolutely! Understand however, that God loves the sinner, and hates the sin.

Never will it be alright to sin and break Gods law. So you can share pages and pages of sad stories about kids commiting suicide, and people feeling abandoned… but the only thing you’re doing is confirming the fact that sin brings sorrow and sadness into a sinners life.

Eternal laws will never be changed, even though they may be difficult for some to obey. It’s up to us to change our ways.

My wife and I have gay neighbors, and we love them. They are amazing people, and excellent neighbors. But this doesn’t change the fact that they are living in sin. You may say my remarks are hate-filled, but they are not. Like God, I love the sinners, and I hate the sin.

Just a thought.

Russ

Pete, I admire what you are doing so much! You words are the words of reason and logic, but also of passion and love. I can only imagine the pain you experienced dealing with the Mormon Church and you family. You are a brave and admirable man.

Good luck and keep up the good fight!

Mr. Clayton,

David and Pete have responded to you accordingly, reservedly so, but I would be failing in my duties as a Catholic if I allowed your incorrigible attempt at proselytization to stand.

It does not take a superior knowledge than God to know that driving others to suicide–with intent, or without–is a sin, by any and every definition of the word. It is that which is rightly railed against; it is that which is claimed.

You cull from the Bible words you may or may not understand. But here is how I understand them. You would have God’s children tear their own flesh rather than seek to protect those driven to self-hatred, self-destruction by antipathy cloaked in morality, shielded by misinterpreted and abused paraphrases from the Bible.

That is what is sad, Mr. Clayton.

The Bible is no shield, and was never meant to be used as such. It was to be a peaceful document to perpetrate love and to cultivate the protection of those who needed it. That the opposite has been true since its writing has been the fault of “the arm in the flesh,” a lesson you seem not to have learned.

That it continues to be true in too many quarters, and that you contribute to that stilted reading and practice of that which God preached, is lamentable indeed.

But as Pete intimated, it is all moot. A simple truth emerges with or without religious undertones or overtones; with or without the fire and brimstone of the radicals in Mormonism, Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism or Hinduishm; with or without the understanding of the masses. And that truth is that persecution cannot stand, no matter its motivations or motivators.

That we can understand and pursue such a truth is what differentiates us from the rest of the living world. That we don’t is proof that evolution takes time, but it is time that the Tyler Clementi’s do not have, time that none of us have, for this truth has to be pursued with an urgency of now.

The march of mankind will continue with or without those who fail to pursue this truth; but we’ll get to where we need to be sooner with you. Cast out your aspersions of indifference or disgust; recognize the fallacy that God would love or hate another based on who that individual loved; and stop perpetrating the untruth that man cannot understand more than he once did.

Russ,

I never said you were filled with hate — that is not my way. Misguided? yes. A bit too sure of yourself? It seems so to me.

Yet, I am sure that you are nice and cordial to your neighbors — though I can’t imagine how loved they would feel knowing that you do not believe they should have the same rights that you have. Again, I have no problem with you saying that homosexuality is not God’s perfect plan revealed in scripture — that is a very orthodox position to take — nothing wrong with that — what i fail to see justification for is your willingness to single out homosexuals for special condemnation, comments and political action. Where is your moral outrage for other transgressions of God’s law? And where is your justification for restricting the secular, government given rights of people who break religious law? That is hard to find, isn’t it?

Simply put, for one reason or another, the church has chosen people who are attracted to people of their same sex — a “sin” of which they did not choose to be “afflicted” with — as the group that deserves ridicule, condemnation and politically motivated campaigns against. In a society that is plagued by greed, adultery, drunkeness, hate, violence and indifference — this is what makes you post on the internet? A man trying to save teenagers from committing suicide and trying to gain the right to marry someone he loves? Don’t you see the ridiculousness of this in the light of Christ’s example in scriptures? Can’t you see how little Grace is being displayed by the Church and your words? Do you honestly believe that the 14 year old boy who commits suicide because he is so ashamed and scared that he is attracted to other boys is simply a sinner who is experiencing Godly remorse? Is that your reconciliation of that tragic act? Or do you think that the Church has done a terrible job of letting him know that he has worth and is loved by his Creator who lovingly formed him in his mother’s womb? Im sure you are a nice guy, Russ. Im simply asking you to think of homosexuals with the same grace and compassion with which you would like to be considered. Can you consider doing that, perhaps? You don’t have to think that homosexuality is blessed by God to be supportive of gay marriage or efforts to prevent teen suicide.

Is it the homosexual orientation itself that causes these young men to kill themselves, or is it the bigotry, malice and indifference they encounter that drives them into depression deep enough to drown? The latter, I can tell you from experience. Far too often I’ve heard arguments from ‘Christian’ folk that ‘love the sinner, hate the sin.’ If all sins are equal in the eyes of God, why are we singled out for a unique and special flavor of emotional abuse and torture?

Remember; Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can scar the soul.

Pete –

Glad to hear you listened to Conference. Hee hee – TOTALLY kidding!

As you mentioned in your post, you haven’t pressed the issue with us, recognizing that no one would win. I appreciate that, as I have also felt that it would be futile, and unnecessarily hurt relationships. I hope you likewise appreciate that we don’t press it with you. Interesting how we can be on different sides politically, but still love and respect each other. Maybe if the whole world could function that way, the “sides” could stop yelling long enough to realize that we actually have some common goals.

As some of your questions were in regards to your family, here you go:

When I heard President Packer’s statements, it’s the same thing they’ve been saying all along – it was nothing new to me – it wasn’t noteworthy, except that your blog has caused me to stop and consider how those who DO have that struggle heard it. Do I doubt the message? No. Did I recognize the analogy about the law of gravity as an imperfect analogy? Yes – because it is literally impossible to live against the law of gravity. I think his point was that we couldn’t change that law of gravity by a vote, and we can’t change God’s laws of morality with a vote either. So I recognized the analogy as imperfect, but I got his meaning. Has your coming out changed my perception? Yes, although I don’t know that I can accurately describe how. By knowing you and just a small sliver of the hurt that you have felt, it leaves me with a yearning to reach out and love others who have the same pain. With that, though, I do not question what our prophets have put forth as the commandments.

How do I think of you now? I see you as capable, hard working, passionate. I’m proud of you going on to law school, never doubting for a moment that you’ll be a great attorney. I also see some anger and hatred towards the Church, which makes me sad. (I hate politics in general, because sides get so heated that they don’t stop to listen to each other, and they get so busy arguing against each other that there’s no energy left to actually fix some problems – like helping these youth you’re talking about.) As for your sex life, I don’t actually spend time or energy worrying about ANY of my siblings’ sex lives, other than I hope everyone is happy, that they have healthy relationships with their partners where they are respected and treat the other with respect, and are being safe. Do we “still pray for you”? Umm, I don’t think I’ve ever prayed for you in the way that you’re guessing. In a family prayer, prayed that you’d change your ways? Never. As for whether I pray for you in my personal prayers, a resounding yes. There again, not in the way you’re probably thinking. I pray that you will feel His love, that you will have the experiences you need in life, according to His plan for you, and I pray that you will know that WE love you. I hope that isn’t offensive to you.

Technically the foundation of our Church is Jesus Christ and His gospel, not eternal families. Although, yes, the eternal nature of the family is a major point of the doctrine. But we do NOT consider you as having “screwed it up for everyone”. As for eternity, that’s for our Heavenly Father to figure out, and I know that He will do it perfectly. Here and now is what I care about, and I care about YOU being part of our family. For as long as you’ve shared this part of yourself with us, I have NOT had it as a goal or even a hope to “change” you. My sole concern has been that you know we love you, and that we still want you to involve yourself in our family. Which, granted, I don’t exactly call and chat with you more than a couple times a year, and I’m never on Facebook. But for the record, I don’t have much contact with any of my brothers. So please forgive me if you took my lack of contact as meaning anything more. AND, might I point out, that while it’s glaringly obvious how much you love the twins, that you have another nephew that is literally the same age, and is every bit as cute, who lives here in Oregon. It seems you’ve avoided Oregon, maybe intentionally, maybe not, maybe because of Grandma being here? Grandma has lived here in Oregon for over 60 years, and Oregon is pretty liberal. I think you’d be surprised, if you ever have the opportunity to come visit her.

Now I feel like I’ve written way too long, and not even touched on the rest of your post, but I thought if you were asking the questions of your family, you would be genuinely interested in some actual answers. As I do have a few thoughts on your other question, I’ll continue for a little bit longer . . .

I too am saddened by youth who are confused about what they hear from the Church and how that conflicts with what they feel. Frankly, I’m saddened by a lot of things, and each person in this world has some sort of struggle. For one to feel ostracized, alone, and with no one to turn to is a tragedy. A very simple example – when I had my first baby 11 years ago, depression was a taboo topic – it simply wasn’t talked about, it was hidden. Luckily, as women have opened up more and more, not just within the church but within our society, and realize they’re not alone, they’re not abnormal for having those feelings, they can cope more easily. I look forward to the day when people are able to open up about more and more issues, so there is more understanding and less feeling alone. And in the meantime, I’m doing what I can, within my own family and with others, to broach some of these more difficult topics, to open lines of communication.

You accused our Church leaders of teaching things that they know will lead to suicide. Throughout the ages, we know that prophets have taught things that are hard to hear – but whether a prophet “wants to” or not is irrelevant (e.g. Jonah), it doesn’t change the message – although this is a moot argument, because you don’t believe in prophets. But I believe that they ARE apostles and prophets, and charged with teaching us the commandments of God. Yes, though, I agree that particular members of the Church have a long ways to go in how they understand and treat this issue. I believe that there is a way to affirm the commandments of God, and at the same time reach out in love to those who fall short (which is EVERY one of us, in some way or another). You want to help those youth who are in despair, and I do too – we just disagree on the best way to do that.

One final comment – you wondered how the Church would respond when someday gay marriage is legal, and you pointed out our belief in sustaining the law. We’ll respond the same way as we do with drinking being legal, gambling being legal, etc. We will teach our members to abstain, but allow everyone else their agency. We don’t supply beer at church functions, and we won’t perform gay marriages. A simple example –I’ve taught my kids that smoking is unhealthy and against the counsel from our prophets. As they saw strangers or even extended family members smoking, I have explained that many people don’t understand it’s wrong, but that regardless it is their choice, and we still love them.

Love you, Pete.
Kristi